What the West Gets Wrong About China | Alice Han & Trevor Noah
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Transcript(88 claims)
[music] If you uh watch um videos on Chinese Tik Tok, there's a lot of >> Is that just It's like which is red note.
>> That last part. >> Yeah, >> it's a [clears throat] sometimes I feel like you like you. [laughter]
>> I could like that. >> Eugene. Oh my god, you have such a good accent. Oh, thank you very much. >> Yeah. No, [clears throat] seriously. Seriously, you could you could go to
Chinese TV and be >> Oh, damn. Damn. Oh, no. Eugene, excuse me. A wise man once said, "Compiments are best >> uh when they are shared with others."
[laughter] So, please, Ellis, please carry on. Carry on. [music] >> This is What now with Trevor Noah. >> [music]
>> Ellis was telling me an interesting story but >> you forgot. >> I didn't I no I didn't want to come and repeat it but yeah because also
>> there's one thing about compliments they are better when they are shared [laughter] >> just like conspiracy theories or sometimes charges when they're being
pressed against you [laughter] like him too. He was there. >> Oh my god. >> I've never heard that one. Compliments are like conspiracy theories.
>> I made it up. >> No, that's what I'm saying. I've never heard that. I like that. I like that's a fresh one. >> Alis, go ahead. Tell him.
>> Oh, I got So I got the email from you guys two weeks ago and I legitimately thought it was a scam. I was thinking, why the heck is Trevor nowhere? [laughter]
>> A interested in China and B, why is his team emailing me? And so I sat on it for two days thinking this is just this is probably another one of those [snorts] AI scam artists that are just creating
random emails out there for people. >> You okay? You've made me realize something. I think you're not you are not the first, second, nor third, nor fourth person who said this. I need to
find a different way to reach out to people then >> because I because DM >> cuz many people think >> that when we're reaching out it's a
scam. >> Yeah, but DMs are the original authenticator. >> Okay. So in the DM, you know it's true, right? Alless if if you had gotten a DM
from him, would you get the blue tick verified? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. On Instagram. Yeah. >> Yeah. I never Well, I'm glad you didn't think it was a scam or I'm glad that you
were naive enough for the scam. >> I did I did due diligence, so I went and LinkedIn profiled the guy and then the team working, you know, your team and >> Yeah, this is too much work. This is way
too much work and I apologize. >> No, not at all. I mean, this is so fun to get to come here. I'm just really a huge fan of of both of you. >> Oh, I mean I'm a huge fan of your work
because you you know as you said >> you you're an expert in probably one of the most complicated topics that the world has ever dealt with and that is >> not relationships but that is one of
them Eugene but in many ways actually Alice is a relationship expert. >> It's just a different type of relationship geo geopolitical relationship. [laughter]
UM NO BUT but but you you you are considered an expert on China which is it I am Am I correct in saying it is one of the most complicated countries to actually be an expert in because of how
multi-layered it is. >> I completely agree and we were just talking earlier how my pet peeve is the amount of white people that write about China without having ever gone or lived
there. >> That is hilarious. and they have a framework by which they analyze China. They think it's the next Soviet Union. They think it's the next Imperial
Germany. And and my real stick is you've got to, and you probably understand this better than most people, you've got to understand the culture from the ground up to really understand what the country
is about. And it's a very complicated, diverse history and culture. It's it's entirely relevant in this new technological geopolitical age. But I think you're completely right. It's one
of the hardest countries to get right and increasingly so in the last decade because a people aren't traveling in the way that they used to. B Western western journalists aren't living them there.
Some were kicked out and c just in general people have this ideological frameworking and and fearongering about China without really trying to understand it.
Did you see that uh that trip recently where a few US I don't know if they were senators or just Congress people went to China? It was their first time which also shocked me by the way.
>> These are >> It shocked you that Americans left America. >> Don't do that. >> They have a passport.
>> Don't do that, bro. You both of you don't do that. Don't do that. Hey, I'm I had a bento box for lunch. [laughter] >> I don't know what that is. >> How close I am
>> to another country. You you >> to the culture. You had a Korean you had a Korean meal and now [laughter] you're close to China. >> You're part of the problem, buddy.
>> Um, no. I I was shocked that lawmakers >> Mhm. >> could go to China for the first time. And I mean like deep into their tenure, like deep deep these people have been
serving in Congress forever. This was their first trip to China. And then while they were there, they were they were just mesmerized by everything. And they came back saying, "Yeah, well, I
mean, China wasn't I didn't expect it and I I couldn't believe what they're doing out there." And you know, I mean, there's a lot of things. I've got a new perspective on China. I was like, wait,
wait, wait, wait. I understand if an idiot like me is living at home and has an opinion on China, >> right? >> That's fine.
>> It's not great, but it's fine. >> If you are making laws and you're deciding policies between yourself and China, and you know nothing about China, like what are we doing? Do do you know
do you mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. it and I love that imagery of of Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, marveling at the the ceiling as he goes into to Beijing during the
Trump X she summit. But that really sums it up is I think since co uh people haven't really been traveling to China in the same way. Now that's changed in the last year or two because there's now
visa-free travel policies and and now it's trending China maxing to go to China. >> Did that really happen because of a show speed? with I think yeah I think he was
he's a huge star by the way in China and I love that >> that's insane that that happened >> but but he's not the only one there's a ton of American vloggers you can see
this across YouTube who in the last 18 months have been going to China getting huge views just showing because China compared to Japan is way cheaper and it's one of those underdog tourism
destinations it's been so developed since co the internal domestic ind uh uh tourism industry the logistics the transport so when people go there. They're so shocked that China's not the
China of the 2010s. You know, remember the Beijing Olympics and people were talking about pollution and it was still >> there was so much smog that people were saying they were they were afraid that
the athletes [clears throat] wouldn't be able to run, they wouldn't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, it's changed a huge amount even the last 10 years. And but my to uh
add to your point, Trevor, my problem is that they a don't go there and b they don't really do the hard work of trying to understand uh both the intentions and capabilities
of the Chinese government and the people. Uh we'll give you a really good example. So the semiconductor policy that the Trump administration and the Biden's administration put in, they
thought it would be very very easy if to just cut off the hardware side of the AI uh development, mainly the chips, and that China would be behind. China would have no hope of ever catching up. Fast
forward a decade, and you know, China's only a couple months lagging behind the frontier models in America. Huawei just announced that by uh in the next couple years it will do under 2nm chip
production which is as competitive as TSMC. That I think is so different from what people would have expected because they're not going to China. They're not understanding that uh what's actually
happening at the government level but also in in the companies the companies like Huawei like uh Smick which is another chip company Alibaba uh bite dance they're they're hugely innovative
companies not just the kind of imitative China that we so used to. >> Well I I think I think it's because people keep an idea of a place or a people
as they first learned of them. >> Mhm. And I think we're all guilty of this in some way, shape, or form. Like in South Africa, one of the main things people would think about when they think
about China is fake goods. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? Hong Kong. >> I'm a Hong Kong. >> No, no, no. I would have thought.
>> What would you have thought? >> Bruce Lee. >> I mean, fine. Carry on. But, but no, but I'm serious. You're not wrong. It was It was Kung Fu movies.
>> It was Kung Kung Fu movies. Drunken Master. >> Yeah. Drunken Master. Jackie Chan, of course. Chan came later, though. But yeah, but I mean for us it was
>> he was first >> Bruce Lee and then Jackie Chan and then Yeah. All of I mean this was like our world. >> Yes.
>> Then later on >> Yeah. Then it became fake goods. >> And not even like a negative way. It was just like they're just the best at making fake goods.
>> But I think a lot of the world sort of stopped there. >> Mhm. >> And they were like, "Oh, China, the place that makes things, cheap things,
toys, and fake goods." And that's where China's identity stopped. >> Yeah. And to your point, it feels like either just in silence or when nobody was paying attention, China just
leaprogged. I was watching a video. I was showing you I was telling you about this. I was watching a video about some guy who lives in Shenzen. And this is a white American guy who grew up in
Colorado >> and he lived in like a small town. And he's just he's not even like showing off the place. He's just like, "Hey, I just want to show you guys like how I live
and my vibe out here >> and the technology that he's showing, the lifestyle, uh, the style. Yeah. The cost of living, the style of living, >> like how people are." And he doesn't he
doesn't like flower over things. He's like, "Oh, certain things are really strict." And then he's like other things people are riding scooters, like mopeds wherever they want. And so, so he's he's
being, from what I could see, relatively honest about his experience. But I won't lie, even watching that, I was like, "Oh man, I I didn't know that about China, and I didn't know that about China, and
I didn't know that about China. I didn't know that about China." And I was just like, "Have we been living in like a dark ages of China information?" >> I like the way you said that. I think I
think so. But it's starting to change. Haven't you noticed on your Tik Tok Instagram feed, there's a lot of discussion about I'm living in a very Chinese time of my life, China maxing.
People are drinking warm beverages and >> China's is living in 2030. living in the future, you know that it's safe and clean. U it's starting to pivot. And what's interesting in some of the
polling data uh that came out from Pew is that in particular on both sides of the aisle, Dems and Republicans, Jenz are way more favorable than the boomers. That makes sense. But that that's
starting to change in the sense that they are getting over time more favorable towards China. That's pretty interesting to me. I don't know if how much of that is social media, you know,
content driven by the stuff you see on YouTube, Instagram, uh, Tik Tok, but certainly I feel like in particular in the last year or two, we've had a change in in opinion at just at the popular
level about China and that's across the board in Europe too. Uh, China's um unfavorable readings were really high during CO because obviously a lot of people blame China for it. China seemed
to be screwing up the process, the response to CO. Uh but since then it's it's rebounded remarkably in terms of favorability. >> Yeah. You know that's that is probably
the strangest thing about China. Like when I try and read about it and try and understand it's on the one hand it seems like China runs, you know, the way the Chinese government runs the country is
really structured and and rigid. That's how it feels for me when I see it. I'm like, okay, they they they have an idea of where they're trying to go. It's multigenerational.
It isn't constrained by the next election or democracy or like a thing that's going to like throw it >> campaigning or elections. >> Yeah. They're like, "No, no, no. This is
our long-term plan. It's going to last longer than we're even alive and this is where we're trying to get to." >> But it seems very rigid. It's like strict parents. That's how I feel like.
I feel like China's government is like strict parents. But then at the same time, I'll see things that China's doing where I'm like, >> that seems fun and rock and roll and it
doesn't match up with the idea that I have of a homogeneous like strict parent, if that makes sense. And I I don't know how should how should we be thinking of China? Like which which
China is the real one? Is it the place where everyone's building everything and they're moving forward and you know there's there's just like a boom happening in terms of manufacturing etc
etc or is it the China that has like the strict government that defines how people live their lives every day? >> Yeah, it's honestly a cop answer but both. This is going to sound very wonky.
There was a great paper by a Chinese economist over a decade ago in which he has a framework that China is a regionally distributed authoritarian regime. And what he means by that
[clears throat] is that yes, you have the central government which historically in China has been >> the emperor. Yeah. >> Um there's a phrase in Chinese which is
that the mountains are high but the emperor is far away. And that suggest >> say that again. The mountains are high. >> The mountains are high but the emperor is far away.
>> I would love that on my bio. >> The mountains are high >> and the emperor is far. And what it means by that is yes you have central command and the emperor or in this case
the central government says you should do this. These are the targets for semiconductor output. This is what growth we want. But local governments have a degree of latitude to interpret
what that means >> and and at the same time they're also experimenting. So China from the 80s onwards had as you probably know these special economic zones in particular the
eastern uh provinces like Shanghai, Shenzhen uh they are experimenting with innovating uh being pro business bringing more private market entrance uh into the economy and that really drove
that was really the responsible driver for growth in China that cannot exist without a central government is willing to give a degree of latitude to uh to the local government. So yes, China is
like a strict Asian parent and I know this from my own personal experience, but there's a degree >> Asian parent. >> I do have Asian parents. [laughter]
>> You see, my friend Eugene doesn't Eugene [laughter] doesn't see color. That's what I love about Eugene. Eugene doesn't say uh Yes. Um Ellis is Asian. Eugene. So uh [laughter]
cuz also I was raised by my TV and it was a Sony. So we have a lot in common. Japanese parents, [laughter] >> Asian poems, >> Asian poems. Yeah. But yeah, so it's
it's and this is my thing with a lot of western analysis. It has a very formulaic and sometimes ideological approach to China, which is, oh, it's communist.
It's Marxist Leninist. You see this in their language. This is what they say. >> But really, you know, there's so much, to your point, innovation and chaos and diversity. Even you know the number of
ethnic groups in China, the different cuisines, the different dress codes, people in Shanghai behave very differently from people in Yunan which is tends to be a more hippie kind of
area where people wearing you know a lot of linen and and and drinking tea and eating mushrooms. >> You know how you know >> and not drug mushrooms but actual
mushrooms. It's the most biodiverse place in the [laughter] world for mushrooms. How you explain >> how means south of the cloudsan >> and it's hu
>> no y n a y n >> and it borders Vietnam Cambodia it has a lot >> and it's a totally different vibe >> totally different densest amount of
minority groups in China including Muslims so you you I think people have this kind of idea that China is very homogeneous and yes most people look like me and they have the dark hair and
this kind of skin Right. But people have diff, you know, come from different religious backgrounds. They practice different traditions. They, you know, eat different foods. I
it's it's interesting because when when you talk about China or when I when I read about China [clears throat] >> because I'm consuming western media the the criticisms of China will always be
uh yeah China seems to be doing well and yes they've built a lot of cities and yes they've built a lot of infrastructure and yes they're doing really well in technology and yes they
basically run the world's manufacturing yes yes yes but remember there are still parts of China that are experiencing a lot poverty and people are not moving out of the middle class and there's no
boom etc. >> Then what I find myself struggling with is I go >> it's just interesting to me that that framing is used to label China's entire
system as a failure. >> Mh. >> But the same thing is not levied in western countries especially in America. So they'll go the US you'll be like yeah
but people live here paycheck to paycheck. Most people are one paycheck away from poverty. Like it's it's like a the the number like the percentage of people in the US one paycheck away from
poverty, people who cannot afford their standard of living even with a full-time job is like one of the highest. But then people here will make it seem like when the media writes about it, they'll make
it seem like people have failed. They don't make it seem like the system has failed. Yeah. Yeah. >> So they go like, "Yeah, well I guess you know some people I guess have chosen the
wrong jobs or I guess they've got the wrong degree or they've got the So I want to know how China views its problems and like where where does it diverge from the way the West portrays
China's >> issues or problems? >> Well, the West in so far as I understand portrays it a lot as you know this is the problem of authoritarianism. It's a
massive struggle between democracy and authoritarian regimes. >> They still see that little red book. >> Yeah. Exactly. They they have this kind of mauist uh Marxist lenders framework.
Whereas in China, they're thinking about structural issues. So what I have called uh the four Ds are the real problems in China that policy makers understand. >> Okay.
>> And those four Ds are number one, debt. You've got debt north of 300% of GDP. Uh that's just a little bit lower than Japan, but that's a huge amount of debt, more than the US. Okay.
>> Uh that why does that matter? It matters because it it crowds out investment in more efficient areas of the economy and it crowds out uh domestic demand which is the second D. You know consumption
has really underwhelmed and and actually is underwhelming uh relative to pre-COVID trend uh because household savings rates have gone up. Households are less you know sp um you know less
keen to spend like Americans for instance. They don't use their credit. There's no sort of tradition of using credit cards. people are more conservative when it comes to you know
spending of durable goods for instance uh and and that has obviously got knock- on effects for the rest of the world because it means that if China wants to keep growing at 5% of GDP then it needs
to export even more to the rest of the world to maintain that growth. So it's the other side of this demand uh and debt problem. >> So so if China's population is not
bearing the brunt because it's not spending as much, it's not creating as much for China's economy, then China has to get that spending outside of China. >> Exactly. And the strength of the
American economy is that it is consumption and services based. You guys spend so much, don't you guys? Woo woo woo w [laughter] >> but so that the policy makers they want
to get to some version of America where they want to be more consumer servicesled but they're not willing to see you know a massive slowdown in growth meaning you know winding down
exports in order to achieve that rebalancing in the economy to be more like the American model. So it's a very difficult balancing act for the policy makers. And then the third one is one of
the I think most challenging issues is aging population demography. The third D is demography. The fact that you know now we have uh the lowest birth rate since 1949 since record on record since
the communists came to power. >> That's why I think you moving back home will be good >> to have [laughter] fertility increase. >> Nice young man settle down. Leave the
40s alone. [laughter] I didn't know this was going to be this kind of podcast. [laughter] There's too many tech bros that are talking [laughter] about proatalist
policies. >> Oh wow. >> Speaking of, there is this one guy in in China who's fascinating. >> Just a side side note and talk about
>> is a side note. >> It's a side note. >> Yes, feel free. Good. So there's a demography um professor who is also the chairman and founder of SERIP which is
China's big uh trip booking platform. Okay. And he um uh is now paying his employees $50,000 per baby because he's so worried about the demographic issue in China.
>> Uh you know China's u you know uh replacement rate is now about one meaning that the population is shrinking by 2040 one in three people will be above 60. Just think about
>> because Germany's Germany's is currently like 1.4 >> slightly higher than China. >> Yeah. And then like and then like Japan is lower
below >> one. Yeah. >> Yeah. So Japan is not replacing not replacing. >> So China is at one
>> at about close to one. Exactly. And that uh that's a huge implication for growth because if you have an increasing number of of the economy above 60 1 and three by 2040 then who's going to pay for
social services falls apart and yeah exactly and who's going to drive productivity when you have um you know ever shrinking labor force and ever shrinking uh youth population. So that's
the demographic challenge and they try they're trying to subsidize it by giving people more money to have babies. But but women this is the thing that's understated I think in Western media and
this is why it's actually uh if you uh watch um >> videos on Chinese Tik Tok there's a lot of >> is that way or is it just
>> it's it's doing like which is red note >> that last part. >> Yeah. It's a >> Sometimes I feel like you like you are [laughter]
>> I can I can roll like that. >> Oh my god. You have a good accent. >> Oh, thank you very much. >> Yeah. No, seriously. Seriously, you could you could go on to Chinese TV.
>> Okay. Oh, damn. Damn. Oh, no. Eugene, excuse me. A wise man once said, "Compiments are best when they are shared with [laughter] others." So, please, Ellis, please carry on. Carry
on. Uh [snorts] what was I saying? It was demography. >> Yeah, you're talking about demography and you're talking about on Chinese
>> Tik Tok. Oh, so girl bossing is a it's a huge trend on Chinese Tik Tok. Okay. >> So women telling other women don't go and get married and have kids. Find a younger man and just enjoy your life and
be focused in your career. >> Really >> this you know you you know this is the funny thing about like >> the world you got excited.
>> No it is. You know why second system effects, you know, I love them, right? The concept that we we never know what the effect of something will be, the second effect of something will be.
Okay? So, we know that we're going to make a computer. >> We don't know that the computer will lead to the internet. We know that we'll have the internet. We don't know that
the internet will lead to e-commerce. We don't know that e-commerce will lead to We don't know. We don't know. We don't >> You can do anything in life, but you don't know what the second system effect
will be. You can't always predict it. One of the things I think we've taken for granted with choice in general for men and women, contraception, all of these things that we've we've come up in
society is people now can choose whether or not they want to have kids. And we're we're basically living in like the first sort of generation where that that's a possibility.
>> If you think about like the the last maybe 100 years, maybe even less, it's the first time where people can like choose how they want to live their lives. before life just happened to you
and now if people choose how they live their lives it might not go well is what we are learning but we don't know how it's going to end do you know what I mean
[laughter] >> thank you what how do you how do you say uh how do you say like I get it >> so but you are part of the >> [laughter]
>> Or you could say that men may be a part of take some ownership. [laughter] >> You're at your prime. You're doing this incredible work. Eugene was sent here by
your parents, by the way. But the [laughter] the thought of settling down here now. Where are we at with it? Because I'm sure if they see someone who's in your
position doing what you're doing doing it, you can influence some people into having kids for $50,000. >> You be an Asian tried wife. Well,
>> the Asian version of Secret Life of Mormons. [laughter] >> But why why why is it not fashionable anymore for young women who are successful and professional in China to
aspire to having a partner and having children? >> There's a couple of reasons. You see this as a global phenomenon once you get to a certain degree of you know per
capita GDP or economic outcomes in a country and that translates to education outcomes for women. they they decide that the trade-off of having babies versus increment until a growth in their
career becomes uh you know uh not an attractive prospect. So they focus in their career as opposed to having more babies. But in the China context, I have a hypothesis which is that
>> you the one child policy back to your point about unintended consequences. >> Yeah. >> Meant that you had for the first time in Chinese history uh because China is a
country I'm sure you guys are familiar with this concept of of having many children is is is a fertuitous thing especially boys. George the door which is a Chinese expression. The more boys
you have, the more lucky the family is. Yes. Change. They changed that with the one child policy, which is government intervention. And then I think I don't think of any other country in history
where you have mass concentration of uh parental time, energy, and resources on one kid. And if that's a if that's a girl, >> then you were expecting that girl to go
out and conquer and, you know, get a PhD, run companies, do incredible things. >> She's incentivized. Yeah. She's incentivized to be successful
financially. >> The one child, >> all resources are pulled towards her >> towards towards her as opposed to a brother. You know,
>> that's something we we take for granted as well is when we live in a world where everything has become hyper competitive, getting into a school, getting a job, etc., etc., etc. It means that
it's safer for you to put all your resources into one child than to disperse your resources amongst many. Cuz if you have one child, you can afford their tutor. You can afford their
extracurricular activities. You can afford their piano lessons. You can >> But if you have many children, you now risk having a wonderful Brady Bunch who just like plays with toys and has fun,
but they may not be elite. You can't afford to make them all elite. >> Yeah. You know what I mean? >> I I see it happening in South Africa. And if you look at
mostly female users of Tik Tok and Instagram and not not [clears throat] Twitter that much on in South Africa is it's usually professional women um in their late 20s or early 30s who do
not have children. >> Yeah. who are maybe on weekends are running um doing some cooking content and decorating. And you think to yourself, this was a generation that was
raised by two parents working government job or maybe sometimes even in retail in the township. And they mostly are the first generation to leave the township, be in the suburbs, become an accountant,
a doctor. But it's so rare that they use five times of what their parents used to earn combined >> to just facilitate their lifestyle of hobbies.
>> Oh, interesting. So I usually do this experiment when my daughter was younger. I would look at race. I would go Africans people versus black people. So black people in a private school, you'd
see them driving one child in a fancy car. Africans people, Africans women would drive four kids in a crappier car. So they would spend most of their money educating the kids that they have. And
then the black people on the other end, you would see spending most of their money in a lifestyle for one child. So we're seeing that happening over and over again. there's more single affluent
black women than there are in the other way around. And it's becoming more and more trendy for people to climb the corporate ladder instead of prioritizing families. And I find it weird in our
country because I'm like us in our early 40s, we are products of those women. >> Yeah, we are >> who were earning very little but managed to have more than one child
>> that went to a public school and managed to find their way in the world. And I'm thinking to myself, where did it all go wrong? actually what what is what is the the breakdown while we still talking
about demographics in China? >> We're seeing this trend around the world. Is it the same in China where the men are now becoming less favored in the workplace or are finding themselves in a
hyperco competitive world where they're actually like losing a bit of the race? Is that also seen in China or is it or is it different? >> Not to the same degree and it's not
talked about as much as it is in the West. >> Okay. But there and certainly not as much as as as Korea where I know there is a right-wing incel movement that is
anti-women because to your point they they feel as though the deck is increasingly stacked against them. That quite hasn't quite happened as of yet. Uh but I think more importantly is this
kind of um you know constonnation especially amongst men that they can't find women because one one of the other unintended consequences although you could have easily predicted this based
on human nature is we've got a massive um uh skewed towards the male population as opposed to females. So there way more men >> in my generation in China than there are
women >> because of the one child policy. >> Because the one child policy and people favored they would rather have one one one son rather than a daughter.
>> Oh boy. >> And and as a result dating is just really tough. The the the barrier to entry to date >> as a Chinese man historically uh and
still is present today is you've got to have your own apartment, your own car, a really stable job. [clears throat] >> Uh and it's really really tough. And that's why we were talking about this
earlier. There's been a trend um on um social media in terms of vloggers, but it's been happening really since Russia Ukraine of of um Chinese men going out and finding Ukrainian women and bringing
them back to China. And the Ukrainian women have really popular vlogs saying how great China is compared to Russia or Ukraine and how great Chinese men are compared to Russian men because they
they're responsible financially. They take care of the kids. They they take care of their women. It's it's it's a fascinating thing. One last data point. I was in Shanghai a couple weeks ago uh
and in uh Tomorrow Square, which is right in the central of Shanghai, there are now um these matchmakers that just sit out there and I literally saw hundreds of them in the square
>> in the park. I've seen this. Yes, of >> 70 men. >> I like this. >> You know, [laughter] this I've seen this.
>> Yeah, but not even a picture of them. It's just their little data. >> The data. Wait, so they said I saw this and I thought they're bering that people are
like >> comes in and goes, I've got a >> Yeah, I've got this guy. >> It's sort of like an auction as well, right? Like people are like, I'll pay
you this for this. No, I'll give you this much. I'll give you this much. And it's like a whole I didn't know there was a real thing, but now you made me realize maybe maybe the the solution to
the world's problems is >> we just need to figure out yes that. But also >> we just need to figure out where everybody's um polar opposite answer
lies >> in arranged marriages >> maybe. But what I mean is this. Who would have thought the perfect companion for Ukrainian women was Chinese men?
>> Yeah, that's what I'm saying all along. So I'm saying wherever you are out there, >> you are a Chinese man or whatever you are, [snorts]
>> you are a Ukrainian woman or whatever you are >> and you might be struggling in your market as you say. >> Little do you know there's a market out
there that is pining for you [laughter] and is more perfect for you. >> What a business opportunity. >> Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, 100%. >> We could stop this. The three of us.
>> What? Where would South Africans go? What would you pair with? >> I leave those ones. [laughter] >> They've done enough. >> What we need to FOCUS ON [laughter] IS
THE AUNTIE IN THE PARK AUCTION. >> NO, but you know, you know, well, you know what's actually funny is I actually think South Africans are lucky in this regard because we have such a melting
pot. So, if you look at South Africans now, I would argue our generation more than our parents' generation has intermingled. So like our parents generation was more likely to be your
mother what ksa your father whatso your mother and there were a few outliers here and there but I think over the years it's become more common for people to cross-pollinate and say oh I like
those men from that culture because they're actually more like this and I like those women from that culture because they're more like that and so people will find themselves you know
zulu tonga wherever they just find themselves mixing in a different way >> phenomena that happened when apartate ended and the world opened up a little is when South African white men started
traveling to Eastern Europe like Bosnia and after the war and then they would be in hotels and then this hot blonde would just come in and they were like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait. You work here?" And the person would be like, "Yeah, that's what I do." They didn't they didn't know that was >> you coming home with me.
>> Yeah. They didn't know that was a thing. >> And then they would be now most of them are the owners of these BNBs and these fancy neighborhoods that obviously got gentrified and acquired so much value.
Yeah. >> And when you ask most of them where they came from, they're like, I met my husband on a business trip when South Africa opened up and they came to South
Africa. They were like, I appreciate all of what you're doing. You work hard, but women from here would have never seen your value. But I think that's what's happening now in China, right? When
Chinese men go out there, they're like, yo, you don't know how hot I am in in Ukraine. [laughter] >> I'm Shong.
Good for them. I love that. We're going to continue this conversation [music] right after this short break. [music]
How easy is it to um to move to China? Cuz from what I've read, China is not necessarily like an like an immigration country. >> No. No. But I think Japan is less of
Well, Japan's starting to change now. >> When I was in Japan, sorry to cut you off. When I was in Japan, there were newspaper articles. It was interesting cuz the the our tour guide was
translating it for us. But there were whole >> You made your tour guide translate newspaper article. >> Make please I didn't make anyone do
anything. Eugene he as the tour guide was I was just saying what's in the news today and then he was telling me some of the stories >> and he said not much. He said no really
[laughter] >> what's in the news today. >> Yeah. I was just asking cuz I I'm curious. I wanted to know what's happening in Tokyo while we're there.
>> Right. And one of the big stories in the newspaper was a continuing discussion where they would essentially the headline was should Japanese people be less um xenophobic
>> because they're fully they're fully like we don't want anyone who's not Japanese here. Don't bring them into our country. We're not mixing cultures. We're not. But then the article is like, it was
weird because the article was basically like, we agree we shouldn't let anyone in, but it's not working. [laughter] But we agree we shouldn't let anyone in, but what are we going to do about this?
Should we maybe bring maybe we should start bringing people in who want to learn Japanese and want to learn Japanese culture and they want to become Japanese. Maybe we start with them. And
then we we were we were out having sushi at a you know those tiny tiny tiny little place like like beautiful sushi places can only [clears throat] see six >> and I was there with a Japanese man and
his wife who had offered to take me with them. >> Wait >> and while we were there >> wait
>> wait what? >> You you were there in a six-seater Japanese restaurant in Japan cuz just a restaurant. It's not a Japanese restaurant
>> cuz you were in Japan. >> You're right. Yes. >> And you this couple wanted to take you out for dinner. Yes. Yes. And where did you meet this couple?
>> I'd met the husband in San Francisco. >> And so he said, "If you ever come to Japan, look me up." >> You did? >> I don't think he meant it, but I looked
him up. [laughter] >> And then he was like, "Wow, you're here." And I was like, "Yes, I would love to go and have sushi." So he took me.
>> We went to this place. >> The chef is making the food. It's amazing. Some of the best sushi I've ever had. And then um I think they were Americans. Yeah. But the an American
couple walked in and then the chef was like, "No, we're closed." And then they were like, "Oh." And they looked at us and we're guilty with our chopsticks. You know, you're
like mid and they're like, "We're closed." And they looked at us like, "You can't be closed." And we I was like, "Yo, I'm not trying to not get the sushi, so I'm not going to [laughter] I
was like, yeah, I mean, whatever's happening here." They left. And then the the chef said to them, "Uh, yeah, I I don't allow nonJapanese people into the restaurant."
>> But it was interesting why. He said, "Because I do not believe that I can provide the best level of service to people who do not understand me and I don't understand them."
>> Yeah. >> And so if I don't speak their language, this is not going to be the the the experience it needs to be. >> And so they I don't allow them in here.
And there were many places like that in Japan. But then I asked I was like, "Yeah, but how does that do for business?" And he said, "Well, we're actually struggling because of that
because there are many sushi spots that are allowing foreigners in and I can only rely on the locals and and we're struggling." And so it's interesting to see how this thing is like
>> all over the world like how how much immigration do you allow because without it you can't replace your population. >> Maybe robots, but I think this is where really cultures table robots in a
second. >> We're definitely not going to forget robots. Especially [laughter] not sex robots IN JAPAN. [screaming] >> WHY DON'T YOU just lead with that?
[laughter] >> Economist sex robot [laughter] advocate. Naz loop. [laughter] WE'RE GOING TO CHINA, my friend.
>> It produces the most robots in the world. Okay. [laughter] So, so sorry guys. So, this is where culture is really important. So Japan historically, you
know, you had the major restoration, this closing off of Western influence because they feel very fearful of that and very strong and convicted and they should in their traditions and culture.
>> Uh but I think if I compare it to China, which is by no means perfect, >> there's China has culturally a more curiosity and open-mindedness towards the West. This is why it was able to
>> invite a lot of foreign investment in the 80s and 90s. obviously copycat it, imitate it and then iterate on it and make it better. Um, but you also see it at a um in terms of an anecdotal level
like I go to a bookstore in China and I see Elon Musk and his mother's face everywhere. May Musk like she's a freaking star in China. They are obsessed with the family. Uh but that
goes to show you the reason I cite that and he apparently he was offered a green card by the then premier a couple years ago before co because they just loved him so much in China when he started
building the Shanghai Gigafactory right >> but that shows you that that Chinese culturally have a very pragmatic utilitarian approach to foreigners which is like oh you're going to bring me
money and business >> you can come I'll serve you and oh by the way I'm going to try to make it better than you so that in a couple years from you in a couple years time I
won't need you but please come so we can you know learn from what you're doing and then build EVs. China now builds 70% of the world's EV production and this is only in the last 5 years which is insane
that they've really ramped up that level of production but >> so that was wait so I'm just trying to make sure we don't it was the so the the I think we're on the third D right
>> oh this is the third D and then the fourth D actually really quickly before the fourth D is the robot question >> yes >> is whether or not robots can fill up
some of the gaps in productivity that will be caused by aging we can discuss that later. But that that's a that's a huge question. China is the biggest producer of robots in the world. 80% of
robotic installations are made in China. 80% 80% [clears throat] that's bigger than the next four countries combined. >> Damn. >> It's so that's really dominating. And I
just heard recently in China that they have over 100,000 robotics companies in China. That's again that uh misconception people have is that China is not super competitive. It is a super
competitive ecosystem where companies are very cutthroat. They scale very quickly because there's a huge market. You know, this is 1.4 trillion people compared to the 300 billion or so in say
the US. It's like a huge market that they can service. So maybe robots. I'm a little bit doubtful, but that's another kind of >> Oh, we'll get to okay, we'll table
robots. >> And then D fourth D is destruction, which is the other challenge. It's related to Taiwan. Are we gonna have in the next couple years a big showdown
over Taiwan? >> How real is that though? Because it feels like that's been on everyone's lips for the long time. It's in the same way and you know, not to flatten these
these topics down, but like >> in the same way the world has been warned about Iranian missiles like for decades. People Iran, Iran's going to make a nuke. Iran's going to
make a nuke. Iran. And it's like here we are decades later and they still haven't made a nuke. How real is the threat of China invi invading Taiwan? Because to me it seems imminent, but I remember
even when I was like on the Daily Show and we were covering it, it felt like it was weeks away and then weeks later it felt like weeks away and then it was weeks. And then I was like, "Oh, it's
been years and it's still weeks away." And then even now when I read the news, they're like, "I think it's happening. I think it's happening next week. I think it's happening next week. I think it's
happening next week." And then I remember watching videos of people who live in Taiwan. >> And then they were just like chilled. >> Yeah. But the media that I was consuming
in America was going, "Oh man, it's very stressful. It's about to happen. It's about to happen." So like, how how real is the threat? >> I certainly don't think it's real in the
next two years. There's a lot of internal politics that I can get into in just a bit in China. >> Two years though, >> in the next two years, I think it's
highly unlikely. >> Okay. >> But of fast forward 10 years or more, I think the probabilities go up. uh mainly because uh you know the Chinese will
start to have superiority in terms of the military balance of power. Okay. >> Uh especially if the US doesn't do more to really invest in military defense capabilities. Uh and and certainly
you've seen in the last couple years that uh the spending on debt has outpaced the spending on the military. This is a law in history by coined by my boss Neil Ferguson called Ferguson Law.
So, shout out to him, which is that he looked at um empires through history. Yeah. And whenever an empire was spending more on repaying its debt, its debt interest payment growth was
outpacing how much it was spending on the military. That was the number one signal, red light uh red signal that they were in decline. And this happened in the British Empire, the Dutch Empire,
the the >> So, you can go back and trace it back in time. >> As soon as they're paying more >> on this paying their debt
>> than they are for their military, >> they're in decline. What is what is the correlation? What why are they in decline? >> Because they are spending more on
repaying how much they owe to their creditors instead of building up their military capabilities. >> What what I forgive me I don't understand why the military is the key
signifier like why why the military why not like they're spending more on their debt versus more on I don't know infrastructure and manufacturing or why military specifically? So in in
historical periods and it's questionable whether or not it's relevant today, you know, empires were overtaken by other powers through military campaigns. Okay. >> So see things like the Brit the British
win against the Spanish and the Spanish uh sorry the Spanish Amada in 1588. um you know these military campaigns often times spell a decline in the milit uh in the the economic power of a country
because if if Britain has more ships and is more powerful than Spain then Spain's not able to get more control of the seas and trade goes down not enough they can't get uh the same amount of silver
from Latin America >> um and meanwhile Britain because it has more ships out there um it can develop trade routes and control these trade routes via the British and East India
Company for instance, you know, uh so there you have the the mix of both the military and the commerce, right? So the question is, is that relevant today? I I do think it is because ultimately the
Taiwan question is both a political and a military question. The military question is will the balance of power shift in uh the region in Asia-Pacific in favor of the Chinese? Right now, the
Americans still have supremacy when it comes to naval um equipment, um you know, nuclear submarines, um uh you know, uh air air denial systems as well. China's massively catching up though,
and the next couple years may have more PLA ships than the Americans. >> Uh but also related to that, America has more operational experience doing combat.
It's been fighting. China >> has been fighting. America stays in the gym, bro. Don't play with America. >> It does. >> Don't play. You know what I learn? I saw
this with Russia, Ukraine. >> Russia has just been talking and then when it came down to it, you're like, "Ah, uh, >> you haven't been, yo, America stays
match ready all the time. You want to go to war. America's fighting one right now where doesn't matter. It's >> ready, baby." >> Yeah. But then the guys we meet,
elevator going down, always. >> But it's like those guys on steroids because because then you question whether or not they have the will to keep fighting. That's the BIG [laughter]
>> THAT'S WHY YOU'RE SINGLE. YOU QUESTION TOO MUCH. >> THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE USA. [laughter] >> I love your brain. [laughter] Oh man,
that was so funny to the world to keep fighting. >> It's like it's like wrestling where it's a lot of show. Yes. >> But then then can you know the question
is you know why did they lose Vietnam? Because they didn't have the political will to keep fighting. >> Oh damn. >> And that's the second domain which is
the politics. Like Taiwan is way more important to China than it is to the media and US voter. Most Americans don't know what it is or why it's important.
>> In fact, they can't even separate. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because to your point, you even see it like now with Iran, >> the appetite that the American, the
average American person has for the war in Iran. First of all, even before it started, they didn't want it. But people are like, I don't know what why we're doing this, and I I don't want us to be
doing this. All right. But to your point, they have more leverage in America's politics than the Chinese media would in China's um expansion if they went into China into Taiwan.
Taiwan. >> Yeah, >> that's Oh, that's an interesting way to think about it. >> Yeah. And then she she has time, Xi
Jinping, the president, has time on his side. He's 72 this year. He's he's still young. >> He's still relatively young. >> Still a young man compared to American
fresh young lotus. That's what he is. Huh. Living his dream. Xi Jinping. Is it are we saying it right when we say Xi Jinping or is it like is it is it backwards? Is it
>> um Oh no, it's right. Xi Jinping. So it's the last name first and then because I remember we when we found out like Shinszo Abbe it was Abbe Shinszo and we were saying
>> we were basically saying his name backwards the whole time >> and then all of a sudden someone was like no it's wrong. >> No he he's got it right. Yeah exactly.
>> What is what has made him so successful? Like it seems like again when you read Western media and this is something by the way that I I think is interesting to your point
I only realized the other day China is one of the few like major countries where its news is also being written in its language. M >> so if you cannot read Chinese or
Mandarin Cantonese whichever one is being written in you are missing out on a lot of the nuance and the actual reporting and storytelling that's happening in the does that make sense so
you're just going like oh we're looking at numbers we're looking at data we're looking at numbers but we don't go there physically and we also don't read or listen to what the people are actually
saying >> like that's that's another thing that I that I was thinking about but >> again from what I read that is in English they'll say like Xi Jinping is
he's just leagues ahead of his predecessors and he's he's got like a an iron grip on the country and a focus that no one has ever really had in the in the modern age at least. How true is
that and and why is it that he's being so successful in implementing his vision of what the party is trying to do? [snorts] >> I well the fastest way to answer that is
that he has elements of Mao and I and I don't say there's a form of criticism. If you look back in history, what Mao understood and part of the reason why he was successful, even though he had a
wilderness period in the ' 50s where he was out of the party for a bit, >> well, he's still in the party, but he was not in the elite uh party leadership, he came back because he
understood that power lived not in the elite >> uh policy makers, the elite um CCP apparachics, but in the people. So he had this concept of the mass line where
it's like from the people to the people >> that that if you if you um and this obviously led to some of the bad parts of history like the red uh the red guard, the cultural revolution because
you wanted to stir up political fervor and nationalism. He understood that if the people love you >> and they see you as this charismatic leader, that's the only thing that
matters. and and part of what she has been successful in doing relative to his two previous successes >> is to build up this sort of cult of personality
>> uh and to build up this nationalist favor. He calls it the the great Chinese dream and he even said it in the in the in the summit that state banquet when Trump was there
>> that he said uh America make America great again can coexist with his own slogan which is the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation. M >> so he has these very uh patriotic
jingoistic language which you know to to some extent other authoritarian leaders like Putin and Modi have as well but he's been able to leverage that um to have a mass appeal and obviously what's
helped him is that he has now this external aggressor >> you know this this you know in in traditional Chinese communist terms this this paper tiger or imperialist power
which is America and only a strong man like she who has the will of the people uh who can see the future. He calls himself the great helmsman. He can he can uh help course uh chart the course
in these very choppy difficult geopolitical waters. And then the last bit which I think has has made him successful is that like Deng Xiaoing he understood he understands politics
uh the game of politics and he has been leading these anti-corruption campaigns and promoting his own people uh in order to again consolidate his power through all arms whether it's the it's not just
the party it's also the PLA it's the intelligence system uh it's it's really all levels of of the party. He he he has been raising a lot of loyalists and that again consolidates his power within the
party. So in in certain respects he's a combination of both leaders but I think he's been uh very successful in building himself up ultimately as a charismatic leader. Do do
I mean I wouldn't say do they see it because I guess they do but like it feels like America is withdrawing from the world and in that withdrawal it feels like China is filling in the void.
So many Americans I think sometimes will take for granted that part of the reason America is as powerful as it is and has been as powerful as it has been is
primarily because of its soft power. America didn't go around the world blowing up the world to get the power it had. It went to Africa with things like US aid, you know, it helped um European
governments build themselves up after World War II. It gave low interest loans. It really became the the benefactor of the world. >> It helped with trade. It inspired Yeah.
It was it was really the sugar daddy of the world >> and that made the world like America and aspired to to America. >> Over the past few years, we've seen
America take a step back and go, "Hey, America is America. We don't want anything to do with the rest of the world. Don't involve us." and and that's that. And then you see it in Africa like
China's gone in and you know has built ports and built roads and railways and airports and created these interesting agreements where like the Chinese will never lose in the deal, you know. So
it's like either they get their money back or they now own infrastructure in Africa. >> Um we've seen the the Chinese reach out to like Brazil and create new deals that
never existed for like soy exports, etc. M >> within China, what do you think they are seeing with America pulling back and what do you think they're trying to do?
Like is there a concerted effort to fill the gap or is it just them creating another version of a silk road? >> Yeah. Uh lots of people talk about policy makers in China as being majority
engineers in the in the way that uh is different from the US where they're majority lawyers. But I the the other thing that I think is interesting about policy makers is that they are very keen
historians. A lot of them read history and they have looked at American history and gone actually it's not that great to be everyone's enabler and sugar daddy. You know there's just a lot of these
commitments that you have to make obligations >> on obligations. um you know it's far better if you know actually we have uh trade with all these
different countries and we help them build infrastructure that it actually accelerates trade so they buy more of our products >> and we can have get more commodities
like cobalt and lithium from Africa so that we don't have any supply chain problems like the Americans eur and Europeans have had so we can really dominate across technologies and supply
chains that is the the thinking which is let's have more influence globally but maybe more preeminence regionally in Asia where we're looked to as >> uh within a tributary system we're
looked to as the center >> but I I don't think policy makers have this view that it's worthwhile or worth their while to become the next global policeman uh the next sugar daddy
because they've seen what that means you know costly battles uh increasing deficit spending in the American context and they increasingly look at the model in America and see a lot of problems but
one last thing I'll say which I think is under appreciated. So in the 1990s the G7 countries comprised about 70% of global GDP. >> Okay.
>> Today the global uh today that's only 40% G7 countries. >> And the global south now represents about 40% of global GDP and rising the global south. So countries like South
Africa, Brazil, >> India, >> right? China. Um, and by uh the population is in 85%. Which is crazy. 85% of the world lives in the global
south. >> The global south >> and China's big bet is the global south. Back to the demographic thing. That is where there's a young labor
force. That's where economies are still growing and that's where you have markets that could still grow to buy to buy your goods. So I don't think that's understood enough in in the west where
we have a very naval gazing approach which is like the only game in town is is a G7. >> It's increasingly not not true. The the balance of power is shifting.
>> Don't press [music] anything. We've got more what now after this. [music] How do people on the ground feel in China? Because again, that that's
another one of those things where if you just like read the media, they'll they'll always make it seem like Western media makes it seem like people in China are clamoring to get out.
>> Yeah. Not having a good time. >> Clamoring. They're like, "You thank your lucky stars that you don't live in China because, oh, they would dream to live in a country where there's 600 TV channels
and 15 kinds of nutmilk. You don't understand how it is." You don't understand. >> That exists already in China. Just so >> that's hilarious. [laughter]
But that but that's yeah >> there's more variety actually in certain foods in China. Just just so you know. >> You but this so so what is the average Chinese I know you're not speaking for
everyone but like what is the average Chinese person experiencing of China and what are they like do do you know what I mean? How how are they viewing China? >> So there's a good side and a bad side.
The good side is you know everyone everyone else is having a worse time. Look at they have this narrative. Okay, there's just so much crime and guns in America and racism increasingly. They
don't want people like us, you know, and and you know, Trump has just put in this new um green card policy that makes it harder for people to stay while they're getting their green cards.
>> Oh, yes. Now you have to go you have to leave the country. Seems like a trap. >> Yeah, exactly. And and then and but the flip side of it is um you know, people do feel like the economy is slowing
down. There's this concept you always hear in the media in the West, this concept of lying flat. tongping, which is, you know, why would you be in the rat race and work super hard when you
can only get so much money and, you know, deflation is happening in the economy and there's not as many jobs. You know, youth unemployment's still close to 20%.
>> So, young people in China feel a little bit depressed about the economy and where it's heading relative to their parents' generation, which was in the boom years. Uh but they still look at
the rest of the world and go, "Well, I'd rather this than unsafe uh unstable systems where you don't know if you could have you have a very right-wing
government that comes in or a leftwing government that changes all the policies and trains don't work on run on time." You know that's the social contract which is they'd much rather an efficient
stable safe system >> than just to put it very simply the kinds of democratic liberal freedoms that people in the west say are you know of prime importance.
>> I mean yeah look a simple example is you look at California has been saying they're going to build a highspeed rail system for more than a decade now. They still haven't gotten it done. Hyperoop.
>> Yeah. Not even the Hyperloop was Elon. They were saying they're going to build one. I guess it was going like all the way up to like San Francisco. So, it was supposed to
>> and this project was supposed to happen and it's just money and nothing's going on. And then in the meantime, China has interconnected like all of its cities with insanely fast mag rail. That's But
but again, is that is that an accurate cuz I haven't been there. Is this an accurate depiction of it? >> Yeah. Then the gigantic structures in Chongqing. They just had the world's
biggest elevator. It's the longest elevator in the world. It takes Sorry, escalator. Not elevator. Escalator. It takes about 20 25 minutes to go from bottom to
>> 25 minutes on an escalator. [laughter] Yo, bro. Imagine you imagine you drop your bag on that. Have you ever dropped a bag? >> DROP YOURSELF.
>> [laughter] >> 15 MINUTES later goes up and you go down and you go nowhere. >> You know, [laughter] you know, you fall
for so long that people have time to process their grief. Eugene, [laughter] >> I mean, we lived a good life with Eugene if we're honest. I mean, it was a good
one. It was a He was a great guy. He was a Yeah, man. It was a >> Where's [laughter] 20 minutes on an >> 30, right? No, 20 to 25 minutes. I can't
remember the exact distance, but you should look it up. It goes from the base to to [laughter] the top of the mountain. >> Oh my god.
>> It really does. Yeah, it feels like it feels like China's just doing like impossible things most of the time. Like in in every I was reading about BYD the other day. Oh, maybe this is Yeah, this
is you're the perfect person to ask this. >> Why? >> Why was I reading about BYD? >> No. Why is she the perfect person to
ask? because she knows about China and she knows about economics and you know none of these things even though I ask you about them every day. >> You don't try and learn [ __ ] [laughter]
>> out here telling me about beard oil. >> That's the real BYD. [laughter] >> So beard your dreams. [laughter] So, um, BYD for a long time was considered the laughing stock of car manufacturers,
right? There's like one video of Elon Musk in particular like laughing in an interview. They go, "What about BYD?" And he's like, "Well, [laughter] have you seen their cars?"
>> And then you you fast forward a few decades and BYD, you see, not only do they have one of the most successful cars, one of the best electric cars, they've got superior battery technology.
in terms of range, in terms of charging speed, in terms of like how they use it in the car. You then you see even the the pipeline they've created where they've got their own ships shipping the
cars to Brazil, to Canada, etc., etc. And and [snorts] then I was I was reading this really interesting story about like how they're saying, "Oh, it's not going to last. BYD is not going to
last like this because right now they're being subsidized by the government and the Chinese government is doing a good job of propping up many of its industries to make it seem like they're
doing better than they actually are. >> Now, I'm not an economist, but the first thought that came to my mind was like, yeah, but >> many countries subsidize their
industries. So, I I I couldn't really understand what the issue was, >> but I I I wondered if there's any truth to the house of cardsness in China's economy or if this is being overblown.
So to unpack that, you can't deny the fact that BYD is now the biggest producer and exporter of EVs. It's overtaken Tesla in the last couple months.
>> Uh and if you've been in one, you understand why it's so appealing. It's cheaper. >> My first one was in like Singapore. It's insane.
>> It it's a great user experience both as a driver and and a passenger. >> Uh yes, there were huge subsidies that been put in place to support the EV sector. that has been part of the
ability for the EV sector and in particular BYD to scale so quickly. >> Okay. >> But they are starting to walk that back. So in the last couple of uh months in
particular, they're trying to get rid of some of the subsidies, the export tax rebates. >> Yeah. >> They're again trying to make it a bit
more uh competitive domestically and globally because they now understand, hey, you know, the Europeans and Brazilians don't don't like the fact that we're, you know, giving them cheap
EVs. we would have thought they would like it cuz this is great for green technology. But now they're starting to understand it's not just about um green technology and and market competition.
It's also about a lot of these countries fearing the the flooding of Chinese goods. And so now you're starting to see them get unwind some of these subsidies for but for the sector. But in general I
think the the problem is that the subsidies are so large. These are the subsidies that China puts on whether it's solar panels, wind turbines, electric vehicles, batteries. Yeah.
>> Uh much larger than say even the Europeans or other countries put on on to support the sector. Um that it is no longer seen as fair competition by a lot of these other countries and because
China you is still acting in the framework of a developing economy even though in many respects because of its technology boom it's no longer a developing economy. It uses that as an
excuse to have the massive subsidies that it has for the green technology sector. Okay. Got it. And that's the big that's a problem that the Europeans and Brussels have or say the Brazilians or
the G7 countries like Canada or Australia have about sort of the flood of of cheap uh electric vehicles is that the government um has historically done huge, you know, amounts of subsidies to
support its local industry. It's a it's a it's such a fascinating time because China always seems to be looming, but you never know when the threat will ever
be realized or if it is even a threat because what you know sometimes people talk about China as if it is waiting to take over the world.
>> But then whenever I listen to what Chinese politicians will say publicly at least, they're like, "China has no interest in taking over the world. China's interest is in making China the
best in China. And they'll always say like, "We've been around for 5,000 years. We have no interest in going anywhere. Look at how big we are. Our goal is just to make this the shining
beacon in the world." And and it's it's interesting to see how different those two viewpoints are. >> You know, the one viewpoint from most of the West is when a country is that big
and that powerful, it's inevitable that it goes out. >> Yeah. >> And then the Chinese leaders will be like, "No, no, no. You go out. We don't
go out. We we are going in and we're trying to extend our tentacles to grow this thing as big as possible. Where does where does the truth lie as you see it
>> historically it's control the home base. >> Yeah. >> Um and now more in in the last couple decades it's about having influence
globally. You know we talked about commodities supply chains even to some extent geopolitics but I I look to history. So the last time China um you know went out to Africa uh in imperial
history was in the Ming dynasty in the 1500s. There was this um Muslim unic uh captain who was you know an amazing figure in Chinese history who went out all the way to Africa and brought back a
giraffe to the the uh the emperor's [clears throat] emperor's court. And that was the last time after that they decided hey why are we going to Africa? It's too expensive. we should just focus
on our own you know great culture and economy and and system and the other thing that I would say is that I don't think this is understood enough historically China has been
controlled if you go to imperial history by non-hand people hand so the hand Chinese are the majority of the Chinese you know I think close to 90% of the population
>> but you know if you look at theqing empire which is the last empire in China that was the manturian you know that area that is border is is the Korean peninsula um and northeast
China >> they are not ethnically the same as the Han people they were basically foreigners who invaded and um you know took over the country
>> uh and imposed things like the queue you know that in Chinese you've got the shaved head and the long braid that is not >> a hand Chinese that is not a that is a
complete Ching Manurian >> your hand is still >> import [laughter] And then you also know that the Mongols took over course centuries before that
and founded their own dynasty. So, so I China doesn't have that same historical legacy of going out and wanting to invade other countries and have an empire. In fact, it has more of a a
historical experience of other countries wanting to try to >> take it, >> take it over. The British tried obviously and to some extent failed uh
uh in the 1800s, but they did manage to take Hong Kong for instance. So it's just a different it's a different frameworking, a different historical legacy. But I think in the last two
decades, the Chinese understand >> and I think this has really been borne out by the Iran crisis. >> Yeah. >> Is that you need to have influence a
little bit everywhere. Yeah. like with the Gulfies, with the Africans, with the Russians, you know, have negotiations and deals everywhere so that if like there's a straight of home use crisis
and 50% of hydrocarbons gets taken off the table for a period of time, then you can find resources to to replenish your stockpiles and import from other places around the world. So that's the that's
the way that I look at it is it's less of an empire and it's more of a network of influence on trade, on geopolitics, on supply chains. >> So do do you think China is going to
look to the robots? Is is that is that a conversation that they're having? >> Oh yeah, for sure. Is that robots are going to help with a demographic challenge and robots are going to be the
next major export like EVs and solar panels and batteries were a decade ago? But help help me understand what solutions or what what problems the robots are actually going
to be fixing because I understand okay there's there's the decline in terms of people's age and their ability to do things. So I guess robots taking care of people is
that one aspect >> of elderly people. >> Okay. So robots taking care of elderly people. >> Yeah. And then you have more task
specific you know uh robotic installations in already happening in factories. So dark factories that are completely uh devoid of humans basically and it's just machines
>> uh uh robotic machines. Uh then you have certain hospitals and pharmaceutical >> uh uh companies that use again robotic arms to pick you know pick out somebody's orders or prescriptions
without a human as well. Uh that's happening. Um and then some really interesting stuff that is more in in the brain chip interface that's happening both invasively and non-invasively. So
on the non-invasively front, they have this um this device that sits on uh the skin that basically is able to control the brain um so that you can control uh an arm,
>> a robotic arm, an external arm. So if you have an ampute, there's a company called Brain Co that's doing it. If you're an ampute, then your brain is able to it's able to pick up an electric
electric signal through your brain. This chip device that sits on the skin and then and then move move your fingers and infer intention. And there's another one that's uh more invasive, which is a chip
in interbedded into the brain that is helping people um who have spine injuries can't walk to to walk again. Um that's more in the kind of blended environment, not not purely robotics. Uh
but I I I I suspect that we're going to see uh you know not just the humanoid robots that Elon wants to see but different you know task specific robotic installations you know the stuff that I
mentioned that uh you know the arms that are picking up orders. >> Right. Right. Right. Just doing one specific task and just moving forward with that.
>> Yeah. So for instance I was just in Beijing. I don't know if you guys have it here. Heidi which is the hot pot. It's the Chinese hot pot chain. >> No I don't know Hidilo.
>> Okay. I highly recommend it if you guys go. A really really great um hot pot chain. Um the most successful hot pot chain in the world >> and um run by a Chinese woman as well.
So it's you know it's a it's a great story. >> She single. [laughter] >> Sorry. Sorry. >> Asking for a friend.
>> She might be too old for you. [laughter] >> This is not your Ukraine. relax Ukraine is they have um these robots that are picking up on people's orders.
So whatever they know exactly what people's orders are and then they will put it on tray and deliver it. And then I was just touring Alibaba last year and they have this uh sort of logistics wing
of their company because they started off as e-commerce, >> right? >> Where the robot is already able to sense the optimal and I wish I had the skill.
The optimal way to arrange packing so that you use the least amount of paper, you use the least amount of product. >> Mh. So like like the robot has already
figured out the machine and then the robot have figured out how do I like kind of like um >> so you can optimize your wastage minimize wastage essentially.
>> Exactly. Cuz they can like 3D optimize space and figure out okay so this is how I put it all and this is the the smallest box that I can use for for this order. So you see everything you're
saying there is what's terrifying most people around the world because they go I work in a factory where I pack boxes and I work in a pharmacy where I get people's medication and I work uh in in
a you know logistics company and I and I and I and I >> and in America what they're being told is well look we'll figure it out in the future and uh the truth is the robots
are taking your jobs and AI is taking your jobs and there's nothing you can do about it but hey man we'll figure it out. Let's let's let's do it and we'll figure it out. The other day I I read an
article where they said the Chinese government put forward a law saying that companies cannot fire people only to replace them with AI
>> which again now you want to talk about like the the the >> perspectives that people have or or um perceptions that they have of other >> I saw many Americans, British people who
were going like oh my god yeah why is the Chinese government doing this for its people but our governments you can do this you can just make a law and the Chinese government's just like
You cannot replace people. You cannot fire them just because of AI. >> Yeah. Because they know that they're going to be dead in 30 years anyway. >> Yeah. But what I'm saying is though,
like >> I'm not trying to depress them while they're going after 25 minutes. Escalator [laughter] would have beyond.
>> It would be crazy if the escalator just went to heaven and then you get there and you're like [laughter] it's like ah >> there are robots everywhere.
>> Ah guys, you am the robot. I took [laughter] you there. >> Yeah. But you see like is that again to me seems like it seems like the Chinese government
again pragmatically looking at a situation saying on the one hand we have to modernize but on the other hand if the people are completely left behind then
this thing falls apart. Is is is that like how they think about everything? Is that even how they think about this situation? >> Mhm. Exactly. And there were two court
rulings which you're also referencing uh in the last year or so. one in Beijing and one in Hjo in which they the court ruled on both accounts it was illegal to fire someone on the basis of AI right
and um China in the last couple years has been at the forefront of AI regulation in terms of um data protection but also in terms of deep fake technologies where I don't think
we're getting enough attention like you can't just copy somebody else's voice or or or use somebody else's image and impersonate them uh and monetize off of that there's regulations against that
and I don't know if that's the case in the US as of yet but >> there's there's a few states that have imposed a few laws but they they obviously they apply to pornography and
another one but they but it's not like a federal thing yet. >> Yeah. So the the Chinese government look at technology uh with a kind of I would say more
balanced approach but also they have the power to do that in the way that I as I understand it in America they don't because there's a lot of you know vested interests
get funded there's lobbying >> is that not a thing in China? >> No if you lobby the government uh if you're lobbying an official you will that official will probably be ousted
for anti-corruption. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's because in most of the world what we call uh they call lobbying in America, we call it bribery. >> Yeah. Here it's legal. You you can
>> lobby people with gifts and trips and everything. And that's just normal. >> And it's so funny cuz when I was growing up, >> I always used to think Africa was the
most corrupt continent cuz that's what we were told. >> They would be like Africa the corrupt. So much corruption. So much corruption. And then when I moved to America, I was
like, "Oh yes, you are right. There is way more corruption in Africa because we didn't think of calling it lobbying. >> Mhm. >> You are completely correct. You got us
on that one. You got us. You know how you get rid of crime. You just stop saying it's a crime. That's the number one way to get rid of crime. >> You just say it's not a crime and then
now your crime has gone down. >> I'm more interested in the future use of um robots to fill in the gaps. We've spoken about industry. We've spoken about how
they can uh be useful in health. When one shoulder of Eugene goes up, it means sex is on his mind. [laughter] >> That's a That's a tip I'll treat I'll teach you about, my friend. As soon as
one shoulder goes up like this, be like, "Oh, yeah. Eugene is stepping into the romantic [laughter] sphere." Oh, yeah. Here's Eugene. Sorry, my friend. Maybe I was wrong. Please ask your question.
[laughter] Ask your question, Eugene. Let me not let me not [laughter] >> let me not punish you. >> You know what Trevor's like? He's like
that friend at the bar. You're talking to a girl and he's like, "Oh, your wife TRIED TO CALL YOU." [laughter] >> HE'S the opposite of a wingman. The opposite.
>> He's a tumor man. You [laughter] would YOU [laughter] >> Oh god. >> You going to tell us about um relationship robots?
Is that a big It's not big in Japan is more big, right? >> Yeah, Japan is a big It's als So So AI ro uh so AI boyfriends >> companions. Yeah. AI companions.
>> A big thing. It's happening in China. So, this is another thing that's stopping women from both sides, but women in particular, because now they have these amazing AI, thoughtful AI
boyfriends. >> Damn it. Uh, >> we're being replaced. >> Yeah. Replaced by AI boyfriends that will check in with you and know exactly
what to say. Damn. >> And make you feel good about yourself. Uh, that's already happening in China. Yeah. >> You know what? I I will say this. We We
are quick to say that it's a bad thing. But maybe this is the future that we should be living in. a world where everyone has their AI perfect partner and then in order
>> in order in order you speak for yourself and then all we do is we'll just create like sperm banks and like embryo banks and and then people can just have kids but your AI perfect partner is just
there with you. >> No, men don't want an AI perfect. >> Why don't men want an AI perfect? >> You want to talk some more? [laughter] >> You think that's what we want to be?
>> Yeah, but your AI partner won't won't make you talk more cuz it's a perfect partner. It'll do whatever you want it to do. >> Then it's not a partner.
>> No, it will be the partner you want it to be. Think picture your perfect partner. That's how the AI will be. >> Yeah. But men want companionship, not partnership.
>> It will also be >> partnership means we have an equal say in what we're doing, in what we're thinking, and what we're not doing. >> It can be that as well.
>> Companionship means there's something or someone next to you. >> So, I'm glad you said a something because Alice and I would like to introduce you to a little robot that we
call compan. [laughter] We'll be shipping it to your house, Eugene. And it's got a great great host of features. It's got a soft outer shell
>> one, >> right? Uh it's it's got all the knowledge of you that you need. >> True. >> Uh and most importantly,
>> uh it knows how to read your shoulder cues. [laughter] >> Let me let me ask you a question. um [laughter] >> because you know I I I realize this when
talking to an expert like yourself sometimes we don't know what questions we should be asking because we don't have the expertise to know what the questions are. What are the questions
you think people should be asking about China that they're not [clears throat] asking? >> I love that question and I think that people should do that more in general. I
would say in especially in the AI realm talent flows really matter and I don't think people because there's such in such a haste to focus this is my other pet peeve on compute you know everyone's
saying oh US compute is the biggest in the world we have an advantage and the frontier models >> but at the end of the day what really matters is having top tier AI talent and
the fact that the plurality and actually in some respects the majority of top tier AI talent talent is Chinese nationals in the US >> is astounding. So 389%
of top tier AI talent in Silicon Valley is Chinese nationals. They're not even Americanborn Chinese. There's Chinese nationals and 38% Americanborn uh engineers and then there's the rest
of the world. >> Uh so if you think about that alone and then you couple that with the fact that China has uh 40% of graduates every year in STEM as opposed to in the US it's 20%
of graduates every year is in STEM. uh five million of STEM graduates graduate almost every year in China and enter the workforce. I don't think people understand enough how important that
just scale but also the talent of these top tier researchers are for for AI development for technological development. I think that's really understated and does not really captured
in economic models but super important when we think about innovation in the next frontier. and and what do you think some of the questions are that we're not asking about like China's vision and its
demographics and its sort of future plans as a whole beyond the space of AI and technology. So uh beyond AI and technology, I think the big question is what is going to happen to and again
it's tied to to youths uh is like what is going to happen to the Gen Z in China >> because the boomers and the millennials kind of really got to write the cotell of China's economic rise
>> and in the next couple years I believe there will be upwards to five trillion US dollars of intergenerational wealth transfer from the boomers to Gen Z in So that's a lot of change that is going
to be transferred over and the question is how are they going to invest it? What are they going to do with the money? Um are they going to decide to work as hard as their parents?
>> Yeah. Would it affect their work ethic? Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, are they going to be motivated to get married or not? You know, how are they going to think about
um their economic development, you know, in a slowing China? I think that is the big question. and we haven't figured it out yet because both narratives of like the youth are checked out and mailing it
in but also the youth are really hardworking and excited about AI both realities coexist and then the big question is which pathway do we take like will with will Chinese youths and
the industry get super excited about AI and will China be uh not just a near peer competitor with the US but a leader because maybe it's not just LLMs that matter and maybe there are other
innovations that that young Chinese people can design because they've already shown Chinese companies have already shown that they're not just good at iteration but also good at innovation
and making very viral stuff. Like who would have thought a couple years ago that the most viral videos and content AI generated would come out of China. >> Yeah.
>> From Tik Tok. >> No one [clears throat] would have thought that. And that gave birth to a whole rise of content creators and influencers.
>> Damn. It really is going to be exciting. >> Very exciting. It's like a Yeah. I mean, we to see the China that we grew up with, the China that we're living with now,
>> the China. Yeah. The China we've been told about, and the China that is. >> Uh, if we go to China, where should we go first? >> Well, I'm super biased cuz I'm from
Shanghai. >> So, you have to go there. It's like the Paris of China. >> Oh, Shanghai is like the Paris. It's really
>> People are irritated that you're there when you're not. >> Well, they're kind of arrog They're arrogant. They think they're the best people in China.
>> Okay. I like that. >> They like look down at everyone else. Yeah, that's the pair of [laughter] people are just like what are you doing? >> They dress better. They they look down
on everyone else in China. >> Okay. >> And they just think that they're culturally superior. >> Okay, cool.
>> But but you get the best I think you get some of the best restaurants. It's super cosmopolitan for a mainland city in China. And there are some areas historically where there's like
beautiful >> um art deco Spanish revival buildings cuz remember in the Republican era, so the early 1900s in China, there were a lot of westerners who were living there.
They had different concession areas or zones. So there's a French concession zone. >> Oh, so they could like build their own >> architecture and they did their own
thing. >> It's the opposite of Chinatown, ironically. Yeah. French town. French town. >> European French town. American town.
>> That's wild. That one go >> where they had their own laws. They had their own laws. So they they Chinese government couldn't interfere with them. >> Hanoi more French influence right
>> in Vietnam. Yeah. >> That was the French and so all these like places in the world where Huh. They own laws. >> Yeah. Extra territorial laws in the
1900s which is crazy. Yeah. And then the other place I would definitely go, do you like spicy food? >> Do I like spicy food? >> Finish with your list. I've got my list
for Alice. >> Do I like spicy food? >> Cosmopolitan snobs. >> He doesn't like spicy food. >> No, he does. Does he?
>> I can't tell. >> You think you got those pink ears by mistake? [laughter] >> Do I like spicy? Let me tell you something. If you can find me.
>> Yes. >> Eugene will always tell me not to call it this, but pig feet. I just call them pig feet. Pig trotters. Then gonna say pork trotters. I [laughter] call them
pig feet. >> Pig feet. >> Yeah. Like is it is it how am I pronouncing it correctly? Is it Hananese Hunanese cuisine?
>> Hunan. Yeah. Hunan spicy. Very spicy. The the pepper that like makes your mouth feel like it's flipped upside down. >> That's a good way of describing mala.
>> That's that's like >> the Sichuan peppercornic. >> Yeah. the Sichuan peppercorn where it like flips everything and then you you hot is cold and cold is hot and and
sweet is sour and like have you ever have you ever had it? >> Your mom your dating history >> as you can see I love spicy. [laughter] >> Well, you know in Chinese like if you to
describe a sexy woman is she's spicy. >> Oh that okay >> and women in women in Sichuan are particularly spicy both in terms of what they eat. Yeah. So but it used to go the
pand if you're not into women you've got pandas there. Uh uh uh. Eugene, I guess your list is now being dealt with. [laughter] As you see, my list my list with women
was done. Alice moved on to >> You see what [laughter] YOU'VE DONE? >> ALICE MOVED on to the panda bears. So, sorry Eugene, you can go with your list. >> I'M MORE OF A KOALA GUY MYSELF.
[laughter] F IS FAIR. [laughter] Oh man. Okay. Wait, wait. No, no. But my my cities okay Shanghai and then where
else should I go? >> Um um Chongqing which is in Sichuan province. >> Okay now I'm there I'm going to get all my spicy food
>> and then if you go very close to that is Chungdul which is also in the same province and that's where the pandas are. >> Okay.
>> Um >> I do love pandas I can't confront. >> Amazing. And then I think that uh >> all pandas in the world are owned by China. Did you know that?
>> All of them. >> All of them. There's no panda in the world that is not owned by China. They don't allow anyone to own a panda bear. they you can have it and look after it,
sort of lease it from them, but the Chinese government goes, "This thing represents us and it is our animal. We're not going to let you you're not allowed to breed it anywhere. You're not
allowed, not that you sort of can cuz you know they're notorious for not wanting to to smash, but um so but panda bears are all owned by the Chinese government." Just fun fact, I love panda
bears. >> That's crazy xenophobia. >> I love panda bears. [laughter] >> I really really love panda. I'll show you my my WhatsApp. Um
>> is it a panda bear? >> This is That's my See my WhatsApp. Oh, that's >> profile picture. >> That's
>> so I love Panda Biz, but okay. So, and then one other city. >> Um, well, this is might be underrated because most people go to Shien, Beijing, but I love Yunan, which is the
one I mentioned. >> Um, because >> they wear linen pants >> where they wear linen pants and they're super hippie. They have amazing cafes.
It's like the it's like the hippie cafe central part of China where people people love just sitting out and having coffee. And >> how long does it take you to get around
when you're in China? Like if if you if you're in Shanghai, how quick is it to go somewhere else? Are we taking the train? >> At the high speed. So Shanghai to
Beijing high speed is around 4 and a half hours. >> Man, that's amazing. How >> And that's with a high speed. >> It's a high speed.
>> Yeah. But what is that distance though? >> That's huge. >> How far was it before the high speed? >> Uh days, my brother. >> No wonder Genghaskhan gave up.
[laughter] >> No, it's days, my man. But what what is the distance? It's um >> Yeah, it's it's hu I think I I don't want to butcher it, but it's like it's
definitely bigger than New York to Boston. >> Yeah, it's way way more >> I'd need to look it up. I'm not really sure.
>> H Okay, that's that's me. >> That's your list. And yeah, any questions you have? Alice, if you could for an intrepid traveler such as myself and a humanitarian at at most
where I could assist the Chinese population the most given my you know acquired skills over time.
Where would you [laughter] >> what are the acquired skills? Eugene wants to know. Eugene wants to know where he can earn $50,000. That's [laughter] that's what Eugene wants to
know. >> Oh, you could be an you could be like there are a lot of African influences in China that that are doing really really well.
>> No, no, no. Eugene specific. Remember you said someone pays $50,000 for a specific package. [laughter] >> Go and work for SERIP. He'll pay you $50,000 per baby.
>> Yes. >> My resignation [laughter] >> has now officially been tended. See you >> Alice. This was amazing. Thank you very much. This was Yeah. I I think one of
the biggest things you've left us with and I hope everyone will will walk away with this is >> take everything you get not with a grain of salt but with the understanding that
it is limited by the fact that it's not made from the place or by the place. It's not the language of the country. It is not the news of the country. It's not the people of the country and you've
never been there. I even say this as a South African. the amount of times I've had to like correct people's perceptions on South Africa because they have an idea from the media which most people
will have. >> So, you know, I'm not saying it's a um a sinister thing that people form is uh is is a good reminder, but man, we've got to go to China and just see this for
ourselves. >> Escalators, spicy food, >> be walking the talk by being there. >> Yeah, I know. For sure. >> We're living there now
>> for sure. >> Oh, man. All the best. >> You guys really should go do a comedy show. It's getting popular again in China. Ah, you you spoke to the wrong
guys. We're there. We're there like a panda bear in our underwear. >> Thought you forgot that rhyme. >> My friend, there's nothing panda bear related I've ever forgotten. Eugene
[music] ever. But the one with the smear. [laughter] >> Alice, this was so much fun. Thank you. >> Oh, it's so fun to be here. Thanks,
guys. >> No, this was great, man. Thank you very much. >> Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on
to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friends still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh if you want to suggest a
guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. [music] We will read through the comments and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking
the time. Thank you for hanging [music] out with us on What Now. And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. [music] Till next time. Thank you.
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